Billy Incardona - Part 3 (The Hustler's Paradise - the Wild Days of Johnson City

Mike Gonzalez 0:17

What do you remember about the Jansko brothers that ran that event?

Billy Incardona 0:22

Polly and George?

Mike Gonzalez 0:23

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 0:24

Polly was the younger one. George is the one that really started everything, and he was the guy with most of the money. When he passed, Polly took over. Uh I I I don't really know much about them other than they put on the tournaments there. I I I I heard that George really wasn't a good, nice guy, but Polly seemed really more congenial than George.

Mike Gonzalez 0:49

And who put up the money? Who put up the who put up the cash for the what was what was in it for them?

Billy Incardona 0:58

Well, they had the bar there. They you know people used to come in. It was a small town in in uh in Illinois. And and everyone in that area would go there every night for two weeks. It was a two-week tournament. And and they would flood the the the tavern, they would drink, they would party, you know, and they would they uh they would have an entry fee, an entry fee, and an admission fee. And they didn't really add that much. You know, m uh maybe ten thousand uh if that. But it was the greatest tournament there ever was back in that day. Matter of fact, the Derby City Classic tried to try to copy from it, you know, the copy from them. They really couldn't do it, but they did a pretty good job.

Mike Gonzalez 1:48

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 1:50

But they really couldn't they couldn't mimic what really happened back then because it was it was just totally different because the gambling back then they they had a they had a room in the back of the show bar that had about four tables or five tables back there. It was own own little house back there. You know, they had about five four rooms and they had tables in every room, four or five tables. They had about uh three rooms, I think it was, and they had about six tables back there. And everyone, all the players in the country would go there and and they would be in the back gambling while the tournament was being played. It was it was action all day long, all night, every day for two weeks. And the food was outstanding, it had good country vegetables, good uh buffets, it was really good, you know. It was it was all but it was just all gambling, all pool gambling. That's all it was, eating good food. And and the stuff to transpire during those three days was amazing. Like I told you, the FBI rated them one year. They had a golf course there. A lot of the players used to play golf you know in in the daytime. It was a real small course, and it was a lot of gambling on the golf course. It was just a picnic, it was just a just a it was a gambler's paradise. You know, playing golf, playing pooling, good food, I mean, gambling, I mean, playing cards, they have a room where they play cards. It was just nonstop action, you know? You know, sort of like the Derby City, but the Derby City didn't have the didn't have the what do they call that, allure? They didn't have that, uh, that Doctor City had. Because it was it, it was the event of the year. The event, without a doubt, the event. You know. Back then we only had two events, the stars and every everybody showed up in a small place and they just packed them in. It was just crazy, you know, people getting drunk, telling stories, and it was just crazy. It was I don't know, it was a lot of crazy things happened during those tournaments. Every time he got uh got his head busted open because he got drunk and he insulted uh choo choo Charlie's wife, who was a black woman who had a temper beyond anyone's temper that you could ever imagine. He picked up a beer bottle and she hit him in the head and cracked a beer bottle. That's how hard she hit him. He went straight out, his head started bleeding. We had to take him to the hospital. I mean, there was all kind of crazy things that would happen to that tournament. Crazy things that happened.

Mark Wilson 4:38

That tournament only lasted from 1961 to 1972, and the winningest player there, uh Luther Laster won 15 titles, including the number of OLO rounds. The second winningest player was Boston Shorty Larry Johnson, which I didn't realize uh he won like six titles. So interesting. Well, didn't Kelly win a couple titles there before? Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. But it's it's just such a small smattering of when you look up all those titles, there's you know, Lassiter and then you know Larry Johnson, and then there's a couple, Eddie Kelly won a couple, but you know, Billy and Cardone was in there in 1972, nine ball. And who'd you beat in the finals? Do you remember?

Billy Incardona 5:24

I think I beat Richie Florence.

Mark Wilson 5:26

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 5:27

Richie Fron was the top player that time. Oh, yeah. You know, and he went on to put on the tournaments were in Caesar's Palace, was it, or or in Lake Tahoe. Lake Tahoe.

Mark Wilson 5:37

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 5:38

He gave away a lot of money back then.

Mark Wilson 5:40

Oh, huge. Yeah, $3,000 entry fee.

Billy Incardona 5:43

Yeah, he gave away a lot of money back then. And poolie hasn't grown in perspective uh of the uh purses they haven't gotten much larger than what he was giving away.

Mike Gonzalez 5:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Billy, uh looking back on Johnson City, what percentage of the fellas showed up in town to compete in the tournament versus what percentage showed up for the action?

Billy Incardona 6:06

Everybody showed up, but everyone would gambled. Just about. Just about. You know, I mean it was crazy. It was a it was a happening that you couldn't afford to miss. You just couldn't afford to miss it. It was the highlight of the year, you know, by far. You know, gambling, great pool, great venue. You know, I mean, memories, well, all kind of memories were made there. I mean, just hundreds and hundreds of memories there.

Mark Wilson 6:42

Well, the the history of it, I mean, people still talk about it like it was almost yesterday. You know, the that's how big it was back then. And there wasn't the proliferation of casinos in every town, 150 channels of satellite TV, internet, uh, computer, you know, all the things that take away your time. Back then, this was a feature secondary sporting event.

Billy Incardona 7:07

Secondary sporting event.

Mark Wilson 7:09

Well, you know, it wasn't baseball or football.

Billy Incardona 7:12

No, absolutely not. We were we were in our own world. We didn't know what hell, we didn't know anything else existed. You know, I mean, that's the way it was, you know, but everybody was road hustlers back then.

Mark Wilson 7:24

Right.

Billy Incardona 7:25

I mean, that's what they did with their lives. That was their life, you know. Unlike today, where people have jobs and they work and they do different things and they play pool in tournaments, and you know, it's great. You know, I I think it's great what's happening today. But back then, that was their lives.

Mark Wilson 7:42

It was called the hustler's jamboree.

Billy Incardona 7:45

Yeah, it was their lives.

Mark Wilson 7:47

Talk about like a guy like that you remember, or Omaha Fats, or Don McCoy, or guys that would come. Right?

Billy Incardona 7:57

Yeah.

Mark Wilson 7:58

The characters and um uh just the crazy things that went on there, the the small games, big games, side betting, card playing, on and on and on.

Billy Incardona 8:09

When when you try to reflect on the characters back then, a lot of people today, mostly people today, don't understand anything about characters like that. Because I you don't ever see carriers like that anymore. You don't see them anymore. Right, right. You know, they say the most outrageous things, they tell us outrageous lies, and they believe every every bit of it, you know, and they're so colorful, they make you laugh and cry and everything, you know, and it's just it's that's amazing.

Mark Wilson 8:40

But then they back it up with big bets, too.

Billy Incardona 8:42

What the entertainment was back then with those characters, you know. If they were today, they would be barred from the tournaments, those characters wouldn't be allowed to play. They wouldn't. Yeah. You think Minnesota Fats would be allowed to play in a tournament today.

Mark Wilson 9:03

And he regularly attended uh and then but all this everybody in the crowd was betting on the matches as well. It was uh everything was going on. Bronny Allen's walking around with a uh beer case full of money playing high stakes one pocket.

Billy Incardona 9:19

God, yeah. That uh well and even at the Stardust back at the other tournament. You ever heard of a poker player by the name of Amarillo Slim?

Mark Wilson 9:29

Yes, yeah.

Billy Incardona 9:30

Google Amarillo Slim, Allison, Amarillo Slim. I will.

Mark Wilson 9:36

Thomas Preston, right?

Billy Incardona 9:38

He was another colorful character. He was another one of those characters that were super colorful, but he played poker. They had their they had their characters as well. Because back in the day, you know, gamblers, you know, people that did uh unlawful things, and I thought that was unlawful, people that did those illicit things that that they don't do today, or at least as much, there are there's a lot of colorful characters and they'll always be remembered. Anyways, Emerald Slim used to go to Vegas during the tournament to start at the open, and he used to book the matches. You know what I mean by that? Yes. You know what I mean when I say you book the matches?

Allison Fisher 10:20

No, I don't know what you mean. I'm just looking in my you know what a bookmaker is? Yes.

Billy Incardona 10:25

Okay. A bookmaker puts a line out on football, baseball, whatever sport there is. When you book pool matches, you put a line out on the pool players. How many games they're gonna get to, right? You you attach uh uh vigories to it or attach a percentage of uh juice to it, they call it juice. In other words, if if you're playing, we'll say Gene Belukas, and we and and they say, okay, Allison and Gene Belukas are playing, you can take your pick, but you've got to lay 600 to 500 or 60 to 50.

Allison Fisher 10:54

Right, right.

Billy Incardona 10:55

If you want to bet on either one of them, it doesn't matter who you bet on, you're gonna lay 60 to 50.

Allison Fisher 10:59

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 10:59

So that's where the bookmaker gets their juice.

Allison Fisher 11:01

Okay.

Billy Incardona 11:02

That's how they make their living. Yeah. Okay. If two players are of equal ability, yeah, they're gonna win 50% of the time. But they're laying, they're laying six, they're laying, you know, 20% juice. So they're gonna lose. And that's what that's how Ember O'Slim put up his line. He would put up a number on a match that was reasonably close. He would have he had to handicap a match, he would have other players give him information on how much better certain players were than other players. So therefore, he would then, you know, evaluate it and come up with a number on the match, but you had to lay 60 to 50 or 600 to 500 or 120 to 1 or whatever, okay. And so I was watching him do all this, you know. I was saying, damn, I'm gonna start doing that myself. You know? So that's where I really got my introduction into booking matches into tournaments. And like I said before, I did a lot of things beside playing pool tournaments and playing on the road, huddle and pool. You know, I did a lot of things at sports, I learned a lot of gambling in sports, and I booked the matches in a lot of tournaments. Matter of fact, I'm the guy that actually started booking all the matches, other than Emerald Swim, and all the tournaments. Okay, and it went on and it grew from there because after I did it, people start seeing how how much money I was making. I was making more money than the pla than the winner of the tournament, you know? And there's a couple stories I have about that too, that I'm not going to mention, but Bob Ospow. Remember Bob Ospaw? We had that tournament in South Carolina?

Mark Wilson 12:36

Yeah, rack 'em up Classic.

Billy Incardona 12:38

He put up, yeah, he put up, what was the name of the classic?

Mark Wilson 12:41

Rack 'em Up Classic.

Billy Incardona 12:42

Rack Em Up Classic, okay. He put up the money, he put up all the uh all the upfront money for the tournament and everything. He produced it, everything he put up the added money. And he was watching me book these matches. You know, and every year for a couple years, he was watching me book these matches, and I was winning like 10,000, 12,000, you know, after the tournament was over, 15,000, 8,000. So he says, uh, you can't book my matches anymore down here. He started booking them. I said, oh my God. So that's what happened when it when you keep, you know, when you have a good thing, it doesn't last long. It doesn't matter what a good thing. Yeah. You know, they're gonna figure out a way to either equal it or overcome it or join up with it, or eliminate it.

Mark Wilson 13:30

Whatever, you know, but you have to be pretty sharp to pull that off, Billy. You know, you can't just be a dummy and book the matches and win because the people are that you're betting with are oftentimes sharp and looking for an edge. And so what you did was provide a service that added entertainment to the event, because I know I used to bet with you often, even though giving up six to five, and maybe the line is a game or two or something like that. But it made it so much more fun. It was more of a camaraderie in there. It was just a different time.

Billy Incardona 14:00

Well, it was a perfect fit for what we did, okay? It was a perfect fit because people love to play, love to gamble, okay, have an opinion. So therefore, it was a perfect fit. Yeah. And and and you said that I had to have a lot of gamble to do that. No, I didn't have a lot of gamble to do that. I'm gonna be quite frank with you. There was a sledgehammer line. What I mean by that is that if you ever get hit with a sledgehammer, you're not gonna wake up. If you're gonna bet into a sledgehammer line, you're not gonna win. You understand? Not only did I make them a six to five, but there but if you if it we'll say that Allison was playing Gene Belukas, we'll say it's an even match. If you bet on Allison, if Gene Belukas and the race to 11, if Gene Belukas gets to 10, you lose. And you had to lay six to five. Right. If you bet on Gene Belukas, if Allison Fisher gets a 10, you lose. Right. So that's a small camera line. Right. Okay. So therefore, not only do they gotta they gotta take a game the worst of it every time, but they gotta lay six or five on top of it.

Mark Wilson 15:02

And if it goes 10-10, Billy wins all the money.

Billy Incardona 15:05

I get everything. So I should be arrested for that.

Mark Wilson 15:09

No, I didn't I wasn't saying that you you provided great gamble. I'm just saying it was entertainment, uh, you know, the that part of it. And yes, you did have an edge, but it added color to the event. Yeah.

Billy Incardona 15:21

Yeah, it it it it was it was great because uh because I didn't necessarily have to have the right line. And another thing is this. And and it's kind of like embarrassing to say this to a degree. Back then, during those years, a lot of matches were already they were already done before the match was played. In other words, there was a lot of dumping back then. In other words, people would get together and say, okay, I'm gonna beat you. I'm not gonna let you get to I'm not gonna let you get to eight games, or I'm not gonna let you get to seven games, because we're gonna bet, okay? And they would bet, and I would have to be the one to pay it off.

Mark Wilson 16:00

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 16:00

So how do I offset that? I gotta make a fled camber line. Yeah. Because of all the dumping that took place, I want enough money to overcome the dumps to still make money.

Mark Wilson 16:11

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 16:12

Okay. And people, and people were happy, they enjoyed themselves. But they'd have been a lot of money. They bet 50 or 100 bucks, you know, 70, 50, 70, 30, 30, you know. Yeah. But it was just accumulation of all those small bets to determine the the end result, you know, and I made money.

Mark Wilson 16:28

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 16:28

So you you talked about uh pool gambling, you talked about uh card gambling, other sports. What what what other sports did you really enjoy uh creating lines for gambling on? Was it football, baseball, or uh other things?

Billy Incardona 16:45

I worked for I worked for some influential people in Las Vegas. I worked for Doyle Brunson, I worked for Chip Reese, and I worked for Billy Walter. Mark this name down, Allison. Billy Walters. Were you marking his name down?

Allison Fisher 17:01

Um no, what I'm seeing is Doyle Brunson, I just see his name here in the World Series of Poker, right? It's poker. Right, yeah, right.

Billy Incardona 17:09

Right. He's a godfather of poker, a grand teacher. Billy Walters is the biggest Billy Walters.

Allison Fisher 17:18

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 17:20

Biggest sports better ever. Ever. He came to Las Vegas years ago, 35 or so years ago. He was dead broke, didn't have a penny. He was a car salesman in Kentucky. But he had so much gamble. He had more gamble than any human that I've ever known in my life. Meaning that no matter what he had, he would bet. It didn't matter if he had $10,000, he would bet it all on one game. It didn't matter. He was crazy, okay? Give that give that guy ability to win, what do you think he's gonna win? Well, he wa he got the ability to win. There was a group out of New York called the computer people. They devised some software that that they created that gave them the edge betting sports. They did this for like ten straight years. Billy Walters made hundreds of millions of dollars. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Okay. I worked for him, I worked for Door Brunson and Seth Reese. And how I got my position is that I said to them, How can I get involved with this? I want to make some money too. And I was friendly with all these guys. They said, Well, what what do you have bookmakers? I said, Yeah, I know a lot of bookmakers. I said, Why can't we bet Las Vegas? He says, Because there's not enough time to bet Las Vegas, because like the stock market, whenever there's a stock that's hard, hot, boom, you lose your market right away. In sports betting, whenever there's a sports team that's hot, you lose your market right away. You don't have more than two or three minutes. And all the all the lines are gonna change throughout Las Vegas. Okay? So how do I get how do I bet everybody in two, three minutes, four minutes? I was trying to figure this out. I I want to set up something. Here's what I'll do. I said to the missing. I said, why can't we set up a two-way radio? It's Motorola. We have we had Motorola here in Las Vegas. I'll go to Motorola, I'll get like nine or ten two-way radios, I'll get a crew a crew of people, we'll position them in different parts of Vegas, different hotels where they have sports books. Whenever you give me a game, I'll call it out on my two-way rodeo. Everybody will get it at the same time, and we'll have every every every place bet in a matter of 60 seconds. And they said to me, Oh, isn't that illegal? And I said, And I said, I don't think so. Is it illegal to gamble? Is it is it illegal to bet? He said, No. Is it illegal to operate a two-way radio? He said, no. I said, I don't think anything illegal. Yeah. Just sharing information. So I set up a crew of guys. We met at the Dunes Hotel every morning. I had bankroll. I gave them all like $10,000 apiece. You know, of course, I didn't my bankroll was their bankroll. Phillip Walters and Chip Reese and everybody. And they went and took their respective positions and around town. And I would get the game and I would call it out on my way at radio. And I was on the same tower as all these construction workers were on. You know, because I didn't have I didn't have the you know, the inclusive of the tower. There were other construction workers that were saying, okay, bring that, bring the truck down here and do this over here. And I was saying, not an A minus four. You know, and if they understood what I was doing, they probably made a lot of money too. And anyway, I I pioneered that. I innovated the two-way radio betting system into Las Vegas. For years we did that, and we and they won a ton of money. A ton of money. And eventually they set up house policies where you could no longer have a two-way radio inside a casino. Anybody that got with a two-way radio was barred for life. So that was a house policy. They couldn't do anything else other than make it a house policy. They couldn't arrest you, you know? So that was how I made money there. Okay. That's fascinating.

Mike Gonzalez 21:46

Question about Billy Walters. Is he the guy that uh got connected with Phil Mickelson?

Billy Incardona 21:51

Absolutely. Absolutely. And Phil Mickelson beat it. Billy Walters ended up doing time. Okay. And it was ins uh what do they call that? Inside trading or something like that?

Mike Gonzalez 22:06

Yeah, I don't know what the exact charge was, but but uh you know b uh Billy Billy, you know, he just he he took the hit, didn't he?

Billy Incardona 22:14

Yeah, he did, yeah, he did. Yeah. He was he was a f a good friend of mine, Billy Well. I worked for him. I went to ball games with him. Uh I made halftime lines for him. Like I said, I I had a knack for making numbers on sporting events and stuff like that. Years ago, they didn't have the uh the services they have today. So years ago, the halftime at the halftime of big football games and basketball games, people wanted to bet for the second half. And there was nowhere where they can get a good number. So I started making numbers for half times, but there was the select few places that were making halftime lines, but I would make them and I would be really good at making halftime lines. I was making halftime lines for Billy Walters, who would allow certain players to m to bet the halftime lines based off of my valuations. And so we we went a lot of money with that as well. One time in particular there was a guy out of South Carolina that was a real big gambler. He would bet 30, 40, 50,000 a game. He was coming to the Las Vegas to do some gambling. And Billy Walters, he was one of Billy Walters' big customers. But Billy Walters was would book him. So we he Billy Walters called me up. He said, Listen, I'm gonna go to the Las Vegas the Rebel game tonight. He's in so-and-so's in town, but he's gonna want to bet me a halftime. He said, Why don't you come to the game? He said make a halftime lumber for me for the c for the game. I said, Okay, I'll do that. So well, we went to the rebel game. Game halftime, I made him a number. I think he bet him like 30,000, and Billy Billy lost. The other guy won. Because you're gonna win half the time anyway. But the guy's still laying juice, you know. And so we lost that. But that was one of the times where I went to the we'll do a basketball game with Billy Walters who made a halftime number. This guy bet him 30,000 and when we lost. But uh I would do that as well. I would make halftime lines for him where he would put him out to certain people, and he made a lot of money doing that as well. I I did a lot of things in Vegas, you know. Uh which I made money with throughout the years. And uh such as Well, I just explained to you, Mike.

Mike Gonzalez 24:30

Well, I I I got that part.

Billy Incardona 24:32

I thought maybe there were some other things that you'd want to well, I signed up a uh a poor guy who worked the streets, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 24:39

Yeah. In genius.

Billy Incardona 24:42

In genius. Yeah, we don't only I mean that's big money. How can you, you know, I mean it lasted for several years?

Mike Gonzalez 24:48

Yeah, yeah. You know. Um why don't we uh you want to you want to shift gears into broadcasting, or is there other things you might want to cover off before you got into that?

Billy Incardona 25:00

I think it was 1989 I was that we first did a.

Mike Gonzalez 25:03

Yeah, 1989, you became the uh voice of accustats with Pat Fleming and his crew uh memorializing a lot of these famous uh games and matches, and you were able to pair up with some real characters, including Grady Matthews, Danny DiLaputo, and and our own Mark Wilson.

Billy Incardona 25:23

Yes, sir, yes, sir, one of the best, one of the best by far. In 1987, I believe it was around that year, Pat Reming would put a camera above multiple tables at the Sands Regent Regency Hotel and the Casino in Las Vegas. He would film matches. So I believe it was 87 or 88, I believe it was. I walked up to Pat as a Pat and says, Why don't you have some sort of commentary with these matches that you're filming? He says, I don't know, I never thought of it. So I says, Well, uh I think it would really add a lot to it, and I would be glad to try it if you would want to do it. He says, I'll I'll I'll think about it. So a year later he called me up. There was a tournament. There was a tournament in Phoenix at the Goldwing Bowl. I believe it was uh Denny Liberto Liberto was the house pro there. And Pat said to me that if you want to attend this tournament, he said, We may need we may need you to do some commentary. I think I might start there. So I said, Okay, so I went to the tournament. I sat around. I didn't play. Because I hadn't played at that time, I was probably retired. One of my three or four retirements then. It was a makeshift booth. It was no plectiglass in front of it or anything, which is wide open, you know what I mean? You would talk everybody. It was crazy bad. And so I said, Okay. I said, I was but I was with Bobby Hunter. I said, mind if Bobby Hunter joins me? And Pat said, No, no, not at all. So we well that was the first tournament actors dads had commentary with the streaming. Okay, and um I don't know how good of a job we did. I don't I don't I don't I don't think we did that great, I don't think we did that bad. But that's where it all started then, okay? And after that, you know, I I started doing commentary in all the other tournaments. And how I how I got other players to do it like Buddy Hall. I came to Buddy Hall one day and I said, Buddy, I said, Why don't you step into the booth with me today and do some share some commentary duties with me? And Bobby was a little I don't know, he was a little I don't know, but well ashamed or what that's the wrong word. And we locked into step into the booth because he didn't know that wasn't his cup of tea. He said, I don't know if I can do that, Billy. And I looked at him and I said, buddy, I said, Do you know anything about this game? He said, Oh yeah, oh yeah. I said, just tell people what you know. That's all. That's all it is. Tell people what you know. I know you will be absolutely comfortable doing what you do, but that's what you know. So he did. He joined me in the booth and he took over. We were doing commentary. He he got so comfortable so quick, you know, and that was his introduction to commentary. I mean since then he done a lot of matches. He wasn't one of the regulars in the commentating booth, but he was he he visited the commentary booth quite often, but not he wasn't a regular. The regulars were Grady Matthews was absolutely fantastic. Yeah. You've heard of uh Grady Matthews' commentary, Alan, haven't you? You've listened to some of his. Oh, I've lived in it in a fan with him. You went on tour with him. I know that. Exactly. Have you listened to his commentary?

Allison Fisher 29:09

Yeah, I love it. Fantastic. Oh, he's he's just beautiful.

Billy Incardona 29:13

He is beautiful because he's got an endless vocabulary.

Allison Fisher 29:17

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 29:18

Okay. That you have to be so proud of him, especially being a pool player, especially being somewhat a limited educated player with a limited education.

Allison Fisher 29:30

Yeah.

Billy Incardona 29:30

Wow, not all pool players are dumb, you know. That's right.

Allison Fisher 29:34

He used to do the New York Times crossword every day.

Billy Incardona 29:37

I'm telling you. And we love I love doing commentary with him. We used to go back and forth and back and forth. I couldn't keep up with him with all the jargon and everything. But I did my thing, he did his thing, and it was really a hit. It was a blast. It was a hoot, it was good. And he was uh he was he was without a doubt one of the best in the booth there ever was, you know. And Danny Danny was good, but the best in the booth, in my opinion, is uh Jeremy Jones.

Allison Fisher 30:04

Oh yeah.

Billy Incardona 30:05

He's the best.

Allison Fisher 30:06

Very, very good.

Mike Gonzalez 30:08

And what makes him what what makes him the best in your opinion, in terms of what he does differently?

Billy Incardona 30:13

Uh well, Jeremy Jeremy understands the game so well, and he's able to he was able to describe it so eloquently. He can just describe all the intricacies of the game, you know, and he's very quick to seeing possibilities. You know, what will possibly happen if this happens or if this happens or if this happens. Okay. Mark is excellent. He's he's got an excellent vocabulary, he's such a wonderful professional in the booth, it's unbelievable. You know, him and Jeremy Jones are so good together. I love listening to them too. But Jeremy is just he just understands the game so well and he's able to elaborate and explain it so well. Yeah. You know, and and he's he's a lot of people's favorites.

Mike Gonzalez 30:58

Well, well, let's uh let's let's go back to Grady Matthews uh and you two. Was it always love and hugs, or did you ever have any run-ins with Grady?

Billy Incardona 31:07

We hated one another. No, we love one another. I don't know which it was. I don't know.

Allison Fisher 31:15

Depended on the day.

Billy Incardona 31:17

We hated one another. It wasn't hate hate. It was hate love. Love to hate, hate to love. But we loved and hated. And then that's where it was, you know. I mean, I I I I got him uh I made him emotionally uh unstable. I really did. Yeah. You know, he couldn't stand it. He couldn't stand it, but he had to deal with it because he knew he couldn't lose his dignity in the booth. A couple of times he did, but he was resilient. He came back and you know, apologized in his own way.

Mike Gonzalez 31:53

Mark, why don't Mark, why don't you prompt him on the one story about uh where you had to pay him some money to shut him up for the rest of his life?

Mark Wilson 32:01

Well, naturally, you know, uh I agree with Billy about Jeremy being the best modern day, but my favorite of all time is naturally Billy and Grady, and I I just love it. They were like a married couple that would argue. And uh, how damn dumb are you, Billy? Of course he wouldn't do that, and then then the guy would do it. And then Billy would point it out to Grady that actually, you know, he was quite sharp. But uh anyway, do you remember the time and then uh Grady and I were working together, and there was a guy, it was I think it was the Derby, but it I don't recall exactly, but he was losing big money every night, and the players would give him 11 to 4 play in one pocket. And every night the guy would lose 1500, 2000, and Grady and I are doing the commentary, and Grady cannot stand it. That this guy he's giving away money and Grady's not getting any of it. So he made a game with the guy. And so after the tournament was over with Grady was gonna play. And what to Grady's credit, he would bet big and he would bet his own. And anyway, Grady's gonna give him 12 to 4. Now, this guy, if you smash him open, he could run two in his pocket, but that was it. And so just don't do anything stupid. He'll scratch, and you know, that's how the players would beat him. It wasn't like you're playing Nick Farner where you got to come up and make a shot and take a chance. This is just play conservative, the guy will definitely blow it. Grady, he's not playing very good because we did commentary all week, and he's a little rusty, but also he's taking on shots that he shouldn't be. They're way too tough. If you play in Nick Farner, you have to, not against this guy. Just just lay it down. Well, anyway, you're in the crowd. Do you remember this, Billy?

Billy Incardona 33:40

Who was he playing?

Mark Wilson 33:42

Oh, it was just a random guy that had he just had money. It's not a player. He's not a player.

Billy Incardona 33:48

Well, I know who you're talking of about, but I don't know who it is. But there's but there was a couple guys that fit that description. Yeah. It was um uh John not Robert, not not Robert from Vegas, right?

Mark Wilson 34:02

No, no, no, no. This was before that. John Robert was around. But but nevertheless, he was a nondescript guy. He just lost everything.

Billy Incardona 34:09

Was it dippy? Was it dippy?

Mark Wilson 34:11

No, no, no, no, that's after this, it's long before that. Well, anyway, so I'll carry on. So every big crowd ensues, you know, and Grady's betting, you know, 1200, 1500 Iraq. And Grady's taking on the wrong shots and blowing it, and you're in the crowd as you are, very demonstrative, and you're making facial gestures and like, what the hell did he play? What is he doing? You know, I mean, and Grady's losing.

Billy Incardona 34:35

Oh, yeah, no, that's my nature.

Mark Wilson 34:37

Yeah, and and and you kind of turn your back and shrug your shoulders and got your palms up, like, what in the hell is he doing here? And so Grady ends up losing. And but midway through that, he catches your gestures, and this infuriates Grady beyond words. And so Grady goes busted, and uh the crowd's starting to leave, and Grady is baritone, he goes, Oh, excuse me, everyone, excuse me. Can I have everyone's attention here for just a minute? You know, I'm in here and I'm playing the best shots I can, and uh uh I I bet my own money. I'm not like some of you nits and the Billy, I think you know who I'm talking about. And and and Grady is livid. He's actually livid. And now you didn't know that Grady was mad, and now you kind of bristle up and and you say, Well, if you would have played halfway smart, you'd be counting your money instead of going blessing Grady. And he goes, he got mad. He he pulls out one of his last remaining hundred dollar bills and he goes like this, Billy, perhaps I'll just give you this hundred dollars to never speak to me again the rest of your life. And and you gleefully took it. Okay, you gleefully took it, and so I was watching it. So, so anyways, this went down. Well, then the next week we're at the U.S. Open and Danny Di Laberto and I did a commentary, and we were in the booth and we got done, and I came out and Pat was at the switchboard, and he goes, Um, Mark, Mark, Mark, where's Billy and Grady? And I go, Well, I don't know. I just gonna be up, they're gonna do the eight o'clock. I mean, go get them. And so I see you and I say, Hey, Billy, uh, Pat wants you up there, Courtney. You know, you got to do the commentary with Grady. And I said, Have you seen Grady? And you said, Well, he was down hitting balls or something. And I said, Well, tell him Pat wants him up there in a few minutes. So you went down there, and somehow I was in the background, and you went up to him and you go, Hey, Grady, Pat wants us up there in the booth. And Grady goes, Billy, didn't I just give you a hundred dollars to never speak to me again the rest of your life? He was quick winning. And he says, Yeah, but I would have taken 50. And that was the marital uh discourse that took place between you. So typical, so typical, but it was the most fun commentary for anyone that's listening to go back in the acustats and listen to Billy and Grady and then also Billy and Danny together. The best.

Allison Fisher 36:52

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