Michaela Tabb - Part 2 (Earl Strickland, Efren Reyes and the Road to Snooker)

Mark Wilson 0:13

What did Captaining Scotland teach you about managing different personalities?

Michaela Tabb 0:20

I actually struggle with that because I'm a Sagittarius, I'm quite, you know, full on. I'm not very good at being that quiet little butterfly. I'm not good at reflecting. I'm a hundred mile an hour uh um uh girl, you know. Uh uh so I did struggle with that a little bit. You know, this whole the psychology where you try and bring your teammates on, that wasn't really my strength. I have to I'm being honest, it it wasn't. It was always great when we were winning, but it it's it's difficult because it takes different types of people to to be able to help nurture and and say the right things and yeah, yeah. I that wasn't really my forty.

Mike Gonzalez 1:10

So Michaela, I don't want to be presumptive here, but I'm just basing this on what we've learned about you so far, particularly being a defensive player. How many hands would it take to count your sentry breaks?

Michaela Tabb 1:27

On the Snicker table. I wouldn't take any or my feet or anything. My highest break's twenty-six.

Mike Gonzalez 1:36

There you go.

Michaela Tabb 1:37

That's okay. That's okay.

Mike Gonzalez 1:40

Yeah, but well, we're we're back to kind of Mark's early high-running straight pool, right, Mark? Oh, yeah.

Mark Wilson 1:46

Yeah, mine was a very similar number. It's a far easier game, so we'd be a good matchup.

Mike Gonzalez 1:54

Uh you know, you you already mentioned uh your husband. So tell us a little bit about uh uh when Ross came into your life. How did you meet and uh and what part did Pool play in bringing you two together?

Michaela Tabb 2:08

Well, uh, we wouldn't have been together if it wasn't for Poole. Um I met Ross because he played for Scotland's men's team, uh, and it was at an international event or at a few international events. I think there was a um at that point there was always a crossover uh of events when the men and the women were there together. Um and it it was quite funny because Ross is I I I mean Ali knows him. Um he's he's loud, uh uh very um yeah, loud, Glasgow, loud, what Italian, half Italian and loud. Um and he would I think I'm I was drawn to the bad men and I was I was kind of drawn to him in his sort of aggressive attitude that he has, very aggressive round the table, not round the table, but very loud, very confident, overbearing. Lots of people didn't like him. He's actually a pussycat. Lots of people took him diff wrongly uh because of that's the way that he played, and that's the way he won. So, you know, it it worked for him. Um, and I was drawn to that uh for some bizarre reason. Um and we've we've now been together for 30 over 33 years, so it's worked wonderful.

Mike Gonzalez 3:27

Something worked.

Allison Fisher 3:28

That is wonderful, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 3:29

Yeah, yeah. Well, at some point as you um as you get into your playing career, another opportunity sort of popped up.

Allison Fisher 3:37

Yeah, so how did that first professional referee and job happen? And how ready did you feel for it? Yeah.

Michaela Tabb 3:45

That was Ross. Uh he um seen an opportunity and he can't help himself. So there was uh there was an event. You can't, I don't think he saw the money. I don't think it was money. I I don't know what his process was. Um there was an event Match Room used to run in um in Glasgow, it was a one-day event, it was called the St Andrews Cup, American Nine Ball. And he he'd been in it before because he's a former professional player, very good, uh a great player in Scotland, to be fair. He's a great player, and they used to come up from England and bring a ref with them because there were no referees in Scotland. And when we got together, because when you play pool, league pool, um not so much internationally, but league pool, you have to referee each other's games. So we and we were all snooker fans, as we covered off previously. So he saw an opportunity and said to the organiser, we've got our own referee in Scotland now. And Sharon said, get Michaela to send down a photograph and a CV. So we made the CV up, because I'd never wrecked American Pool ever, and sent the photo down and I got invited to do this one-day event. Um went along to Glasgow and and and what's actually what was quite funny about that was like that was quite nerve-wracking in itself. But I thought, right, so I need to learn this game. So I Googled the American nine ball rules, and I got two pages. I was like, this game's easy. The two pages is easy to do, you know. I've I've watched Snooker all these years, I know you stand behind the player and you take the rest off them, and you, you know, you put it under the table, la la la. So this was all very good. Except when we were at this uh first event, there was a match. It was um Jimmy White and Rob McKenna, and they were lagging. And Jimmy White, no, Rob McKenna, had come off the top cushion, come back down, and the cubal had gone in the pocket. And I am now standing looking like, what the hell? I have no idea.

Mike Gonzalez 5:50

It wasn't on my two pages.

Michaela Tabb 5:53

It wasn't in my two pages, no. So I've I've looked over and thank God Ross was there, and he's pointing at Jimmy White. So I've gone, Jimmy White wins the lag, purely professionally. No, but you know, I mean it all kind of happened, it it felt like it happened over a long period of time, but it was all relatively sort of uh in a few seconds. And after that, that one day event, I then learned that there was the general set of billiard rules, which is like that thick. And this is superseded in the individual games by nine ball, eight ball, seven ball, ten ball, straight pull, whatever you, 14-1, whatever you call them. But this general set of billiard rules, well, of course, I didn't know to Google that, did I? As I'm sitting here with my two pages. So, but then to be fair, I thought after that event that'll be it. I'll, you know, I'll not get asked back. But I I did. She asked me back on the the next match room event, which actually was a Muscone Cup. As it happens, I couldn't do it because I was going on holiday. And then I thought, oh gosh, I've missed the opportunity again. Um, but she asked me back to the next event, which was a master's down in London, and that was the beginning of my career with match room. Fantastic.

Allison Fisher 7:08

So when at what point did refereeing become something you wanted to pursue seriously alongside playing?

Michaela Tabb 7:15

I think I realized um as the first year or two went on, maybe maybe not the first year, because the first year was really quite uh daunting um and stressful. You you've got I'm straight in a world with Earl Strickland. I mean, do you know what I mean? There was no like let's waddle through easily with some, I don't know, you know, Bustamante or you know, the nice easy sort of players. It was straight into not the not the St. Andrew's Cup, but the the first Master's event that I did with Earl Strickland. Yeah. Um so it was it was just straight. Do you know what I did? And I I haven't actually said this out loud. Oh, I love this. It drove me back to smoking. I'd given up smoking. And I'm now at events in the bar at the end of it. I'm like, oh my god, we've got through another day. Got your gin and tonic and your cigarette. Oh, I was with Jan Verhaas and he smoked, so it didn't take too long. And by the way, Ross knew nothing about this. He he kind of knows now that I did smoke, but I hid it from him for years and years that's funny.

Allison Fisher 8:21

Well, he got you into it, fair enough, right? No, Jan, Jan Verhaas got oh go, he was yes, yes, I should blame him for that.

Michaela Tabb 8:27

That's a good idea. I had to think about it like that.

Allison Fisher 8:30

So were you familiar with these uh American players like Earl at that point? Had you heard of them? No. Right. So now you've got him there in front of you, and you're like, oh, I can't imagine different.

Michaela Tabb 8:43

It was a learning curve because, as to this day, maybe not quite so much now, but Matchroom and the television channels liked to allow Earl his uh piece of rope. He liked to give him that little bit extra because it was entertaining. Right. So we then as referees, we had to kind of get the okay from them when it was time to pull it in because it was unfair and the way that he was sometimes. And this actually became more important when they started running the uh World Nine Ball in Cardiff, because then we still had the the same TV setup, we still had the same players, but we were now on a recognized sanctioned ranking event. So we needed to get some guidelines on how we then dealt with Earl, predominantly. He was the only one, really, that was like that. Um, and and so we did, we got some guidelines. And and the thing was, as soon as we realized how to implement them and knew we had the support, I think that was what was important. You didn't want to make a decision and know you were gonna be pulled over the coals by the organizer because they didn't want you to stop Earl and his antics, you know. So once we knew we had the support of the WPA in how to uh how to handle situations, that then then it became uh a lot easier. But um I had a I had a few yeah, I had two two years of not having or not knowing how to deal with them. So it was very it was very stressful. Yeah.

Mark Wilson 10:22

I always admired the Sagittarian in you because you were cool and calm and had command of the arena and then uh kind of set Earl straight. And I thought, dang, she's not a pushover. That's pretty impressive. Yeah.

Michaela Tabb 10:37

Yeah, I think I I always was, but I didn't feel it inside. You know, in inside everything's going to jelly when you're you're having that word or or whatever. But yeah, we we definitely had a a good few run-ins over the years.

Mark Wilson 10:51

Well, what I was indicating is that you weren't emotional in your response. You were forceful and clear. And it was uh it was impressive.

Michaela Tabb 10:59

Yeah. Thank you. Didn't feel it at the time, but yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 11:04

So, Michaela, I'm sort of imagining, and again, maybe take our listeners into those conversations uh trying to manage Earl. I I can just imagine you kind of saying, Earl, you've taken your three feet of rope. Don't take inch number 37 with me.

Michaela Tabb 11:22

Oh, that would be too much to think about all in one breath. But yeah, it's literally it was it was always quite short. There wasn't much to say. It's like, Earl, I'm warning there's always the good word, I'm warning you for ungentlemanly sports-like behavior. If you do it again, it will be a foul. And you know, as soon as you'd said that, never did it anymore. He just liked to push, push, push to the point where you gave him that warning, and then he would just fall back into line. And the other thing I would say was it was an incredible experience for my progression, and I'm jumping, which we'll we can come back, but for my progression into ref and Ronnie O'Sullivan, because he is actually, he was a very, very similar character who could throw all these moves and and change things up. So having ref Earl and having had to deal with similar situations was actually uh very helpful. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 12:22

Yeah, yeah. So I think a lot of our listeners are pool players. We don't have a lot of snooker listeners yet, but having done Sean Murphy and and uh Alan McManus and uh some proper snooker players like the Fisher Sisters. Um we're getting our snooker listeners. We're gonna have you at some point describe for our listeners what the job of snooker refereeing is all about, because there's certain aspects of the job that viewers never see. Uh they see the the the visual around the table stuff, but there's probably stuff you're doing off to the side that nobody sees. But before we get into that, let's talk about the pool experience, particularly the Moscone Cup experience, because I would think that's gotta be wonderful preparation in that pressure cooker kind of environment. You were in London for that uh that Moscone Cup that you did back in uh 1998. Uh players included Suke and Mika and probably Steve Davis, I think was on the team. Oliver Ortman, right? On the U.S. side, you had uh you had Archer, you had Strickland, you had Davenport, uh uh uh Nick Varner was on that team, right? So you had some some great, great players. Just take our listeners through that experience because you haven't been doing it this long necessarily. And to think about what the Moscone Cup has been today and to be in that crucible of pressure, uh tell us what that was.

Michaela Tabb 13:50

I was terrified. I and this is how I was driven back to smoking. I was terrified. It was um I've I've always said, and I and I wouldn't change my opinion on it, that we we were always the bad people. The referees were always the bad people because in that, and in those days, way back in my beginning of the Muscone Cup days, there were two teams. There was Team Europe who were over there, and there was Team America over there who were over there. We the two referees, we didn't fall into anybody's teams, and it was just this aggression that was being felt around you, and you were in this uh down on the floor of like a colosseum of you know of death, literally out there. It's there is there is no feeling. You played in some, didn't you, Allie? You know exactly what it's like.

Allison Fisher 14:44

Well you played in Mark, too. It wasn't quite like it's now, nothing like that.

Mike Gonzalez 14:51

These two played in the first one.

Allison Fisher 14:53

Oh, wow. 1994. I didn't feel like I was in the Coliseum of Death though, did you, Mark?

Mark Wilson 15:00

I did indeed. When we were in Blackpool when we came out, it was just like going into a gladiator's arena. It was uh dawned.

Allison Fisher 15:07

It was when you were captain in the team, right?

Mark Wilson 15:09

I was thinking about starting smoking.

Michaela Tabb 15:16

Oh, it it was it was so intense, so so intense to be a referee. Because as somebody said to me once, I can't remember who it was, the referee is always expected to be right. You don't get any thanks for what's expected of you, but they will be all over you if you get it wrong. So they're and and that's what it felt like. It was like you're you're never the good person as a referee, you're only ever gonna be the the bad one. Uh so which is you know, because I am a relatively sensitive uh sensitive person inside. So it was kind that side of it was kind of hard, even though I've got the outgoing exterior. I still take things personally. Um, and uh it was it was just it was hard. I tell you what, right? So I can't remember if this was the first year or the second year, but um Earl started to tell Jan and I that the cushions were springing, there's always something, right? There's always something. The cushions are springing too much. We needed to start taking a damp flannel around the cushions to dampen the cushions on the table. And of course, I would do what Earl said at that stage. Jan has turned around and gone, Earl, we are not going round with a damp, wet cloth dampening the cushions. That is not our job. I never had the courage to do that at that stage because this was like one of my first events. I just thought you did as you were told by the players. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. With a flow we call it a flannel, you'll call it a face cloth over there, right? You know, getting a damp face cloth and and going round the cushions to stop the bouncer or whatever. Yeah, it was all there was always something, always something when you think back, madness. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 17:00

Indeed. Well what was it about refereeing back then that sort of uh got to you that attracted you? What aspect of refereeing?

Michaela Tabb 17:08

Yeah, um I think it was because I had got good feedback on it. Um, and then you and and then the fact that I love Q Sports anyway. This was obviously just a a different facet of it. And I I really enjoyed it. I I liked the fact that people thought I was doing a good job at it, and I actually loved it. It was like you had the best seat in the house, um, especially at the Muscone, but as much as it was so stressful, it the atmosphere is incredible. There's no event like the Muscone. To this day is is without doubt my my favourite event. Um, and the buzz that would go around the room, it it was just an absolute delight to be a part of, more so thought after the event rather than during it while I was smoking and going through the stress. It was amazing event. Um, and then through that, we'll progress on obviously. Um I got headhunted to uh to go into Snooker, and and that kind of was how I I went over there. Um, and that was because my the love of the game started with Snooker, so it was too good an opportunity not to uh to take. Yeah. And then it's it's almost like, right, let's see where this goes. It was it literally started with uh let's just see where this goes, let's see where this goes.

Mike Gonzalez 18:28

Yeah. So before we leave the pool world, uh as you compare and contrast the two experiences, refereing pool, refereeing snooker, which one was easier for you?

Michaela Tabb 18:38

I far preferred pool. Um it's it was being my love at the very beginning and always will be my love. Snooker is bloody hard. You know, but people think that you're doing nothing half the time. It is it is a complicated game. Um, and you don't get to watch the game when you're refereeing snooker. Um, you you don't you're having you're looking out for so many different things that you're actually missing the gameplay that's going on. I remember there was one time somebody asked me to clean a cue ball on 124, and I'm thinking, you've won the frame. What why do you want the cue ball clean? He was on a max, but because it started with a foul four, I had no idea. You you have you're looking at different things, so you're not seeing the game the same. Yeah. Um you're just you're not in it the same as you are with pool. Nine ball pool, which was the big game for most of my career. You could appreciate the game as it was unfolding because they were only ever on one ball, so you knew where you were. Um and I I just I I loved nine ball, always loved it. Or actually, my favorite was ten ball. Fell in love with ten ball. I love ten ball. Um I hate eight ball. I hate eight ball. Don't and and uh far too complicated, far too long and drawn out. So yeah, no, nine ball, love it. That's my game.

Mike Gonzalez 20:01

So who were your favourites, your pool favourites, and who most impressed you?

Michaela Tabb 20:05

Oh, there is only one person that ever no, I never it's not that impressed me. There were so many good players, so so many good players. Um, but the one person I adored refing, absolutely adored it, was Efren Reyes. He was the only player ever in my career that I could stand behind and I didn't know what he was gonna do. And I'm looking and I am like, That's great. Oh my god. I'm not talking early doors. Early doors, I didn't have a clue what was going on. But you know, when I I got a little bit of experience, you knew they were gonna jump the ball or or they were, you know, they were gonna play a kick or whatever. You would stand behind Efren and and be like, Well, what is he actually gonna do here? And then he would he would jump a ball over a ball to hit a cushion to go down and go over another two rails and then kick it in somewhere. And you're just like, oh my god. He he such a such a talent and such a bank of shots in his his arsenal. I loved it, loved it. Absolutely great, great guy. I think he still plays, obviously not at the same level, but incredible to have had that opportunity way back when he was at the at the top of his game.

Mike Gonzalez 21:22

Yeah, Mark, you always love hearing that just because of your experience uh with him, right?

Mark Wilson 21:27

Uh genuinely. Yeah, he's got more creativity and more shots in his uh bag of tools to work with. That it's just fascinating. And so uh anytime you watch an Ephraim Reyes match, you're gonna learn something.

Mike Gonzalez 21:40

So you got the call, you were headhunted to come from Poole, where you'd built quite a nice resume for yourself to the world of snooker. Take us through how that happened in a detail.

Michaela Tabb 21:53

Well, I got a phone call, I think it was early 20 or 21 okay. Remember, that's that's age, that's that's what happens then. You get older, your brain cells die. Um, from um the chief exec's assistant at that point, basically asking if I would be willing to have a discussion about becoming a snooker referee. Um, because unbeknown to me in the background, while I was doing live Muscone Cups and refereeing these American um pool events, they'd been looking at the fact there was a younger referee and a female because they had neither at that stage. At the point in the early um 2000s when I started, the all the refs were other than Jan Bahas were pretty much either retired policemen or retired security officers or people who were at the end of their career and then uh took out a career in refereeing, and which meant the workforce was very much um older, grey haired, and they didn't have a lot of foreign ones either. So they were were looking to change the game up. This was World Snooker itself, so they were looking to change the game up and and got in touch and asked. So I said, well, yeah, I would absolutely love to explore that further. I'd always been a fan, and obviously now I'd I was being a ref. I was well, yeah, so um as a snooker fan, and I I I couldn't not say no to it, and I'd I decided to give it a shot. And then so that was, I think that was about the May, and then the September I want to suggest, I got a phone call from Laurie Annandale, who was the head of referees for World Snooker, um asking if I um was still interested in going ahead, um, and I said yes. And we had a a session up at our local snooker club, and um but basically he told me I'd got a contract. So it was it it was all a little bit random because I hadn't sat any exams. Um basically World Snooker had said we want her to have if she's interested, we have we've agreed a contract, and they gave me a contract, which obviously was against everything that every other referee at that point had done because they'd gone through exams, they'd gone through a period of um uh experience, years of experience. I I had none of that. I had none of that on the table. Uh obviously I'd watched it, but I'd none of it on the table, and I had to learn the rules. So that yeah, I'd I started in that event in October in 2001, um, and it it it was it was awful. It was awful. I had no idea what I was doing because I hadn't actually refereed a match. I had you think you know until you're on the table, and then you suddenly realize you don't know what I was awful. So I very quickly had to learn, uh learn very quickly and on the job, which brought its pitfalls because there was no hiding from anything, everything was kind of out there for people to see. I just I kept going. I was determined, you know, not Sagittarius. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 25:13

Well, so you made your ranking uh event debut, I think, at the 2002 Welch Open. And given what you said, uh uh very little pedigree or background in in refereing Stooker, young, a woman. There must have been some supporters amongst fans and players and other fellow referees, and there certainly must have been some detractors.

Michaela Tabb 25:37

Oh, um I mean, right from the off, um, I didn't have a lot of supporters, referee-wise. Um, they just seen me as a complete threat, as you can imagine, and I can understand. I've walked in with a contract. In fact, we'll I'll take you back to my very first event. So we had a um I'd been told to turn up to a team meeting at like let's just say five o'clock, which I did. So I'm in a room full of people. The only person I know is Lawrence Annandale, um, at the head of referees. I didn't know anybody else. Um, and anybody that I did know or recognized from Snooker were at an event. There was uh an event on that they were finishing refereeing at a televised event, so they weren't there. So I I knew nobody. And in this room, there I think there was about 19 of us in this room, Laurie proceeded to let everybody know that World Snooker had um basically given out contracts, and some people had contracts that were there and some didn't. So the first of me effectively being introduced to some of these other referees was then being told I had an employment contract that they didn't get. Wow. So that went down like a lead balloon, as you can imagine.

Allison Fisher 26:51

Yeah.

Michaela Tabb 26:51

Um, and a number of them made my life very difficult for for as long as they could. Um, but it it just made me more determined. I was very lucky I had a few wonderful referees that took me under their wing. Um, Leo Scullion, um um Graham Harding and Jan. Um they all three took me under their wing and I could ask them questions without feeling as if I was going to be ridiculed because I I basically did have to learn it all on the job. So they were my support network while I was I was learning. Um and so yeah, players-wise, I was very fortunate the majority liked it or or didn't say they didn't like it at the time. I'd I'll tell you though, so when I first started refereeing, because this is me, this is the sensitive soul that I'd sort of alluded to before, I never used to wear perfume because I knew they weren't used to having a female. So I didn't want to make their environment feel any different than it would normally be. So for I don't know how long I didn't even wear perfume because I didn't want to upset their snicker environment. I mean, how stupid is that?

Allison Fisher 28:08

Well, it's not. I don't think it is. I think that's thoughtful, actually. I think that's smart.

Mike Gonzalez 28:13

Well, actually, what you what you could have done to make them real comfortable is probably just go two or three days without bathing.

Allison Fisher 28:21

Yeah, then you would have fitted in probably better.

Michaela Tabb 28:24

Yeah. But but I did. I I wanted to do everything I could to not stand out. You know, pretty obvious I was the only female, but I'd I was trying. So that was sort of me trying. So I'll take you to that first event. Um I my one of my matches, I can't remember if it was my first, but I think it actually was, was James Watner and Ken Dorty. And they probably picked that as a nice easy match because they're two fantastic gentlemen. They're really, really lovely and wouldn't give me a hard time. But what they'd done is they put me in uh an arena with uh, or a cubicle as they were referred to in those days, with a remote control. And I'd been given minimal training on the remote control. So this wasn't a manual scoreboard that we'd done in the clubs where you slide it along, you know, one, five, etc. That I had this remote control. Um, this is the first time I'd ever reft with the remote control, and I I've got I'm not, of course, comfortable with it because I've never used it before. So every time I had to use it, I'm having to look actually at the remote control. And then I'm having to look at the scoreboard to make sure it's done what I want it to do. Meanwhile, the game's going on, and so I'm I'm not in control. It's not that I'm not in control of the game, but they're playing shots before I'm ready because I'm still putting the one up from the last shot, for instance. Um, and we ended up in a position in the match where I'd managed somehow to put it into practice mode. So I'd obviously press something, I'd taken it out of the live scoring mode and I put it in practice mode. Oh no. You've got all these spectators behind me watching. I'm stuck in a booth now with two players who are playing. I don't know what to do because I'm not on the they're still potting balls, I'm still spotting, but I can I can't, it was awful, it was absolutely awful. Um, but somebody must have got Laurie's attention and got him in to get it, get us out of practice mode, get the scores back to where they should be. So that so that was one situation. The next situation that happened was there was a foul ball um situation that happened. So there was a foul shot, and then I had to check three balls, sorry, three ball. Um I've had to check for a free ball. So I've put my ball marker down the end and I've looked down the line and I've said it's it's not. Um and I can't remember which player has said, can I have a second opinion? Well, of course I'm shaking like a leaf already because I'm not really very good at this job. Um so I've gone and got Laurie and brought him in, and and he's he has disagreed with me, he's concurred with the player. It was in fact a free ball. Well, I'm I'm in I'm just in bits. I'm in bits because I've now been overruled in front of two players and the spectators, la la la. Um so we've gone to the interval, so you get a 20-minute interval, and I've gone into the um the refs room, um, and one of my other colleagues, Irene Williams, was there, and he could say I I I was upset or stressed or whatever. And he said, What's up? And um, and I've tried to explain to him that I I couldn't, I got overruled in this free ball situation. And and bless him, he's he's like, Oh my goodness, you need to do this, you need to do this. And he's taken the balls out of the box, and we've got like a it's like a kitchen worktop, you know, where they've got a sink and a side uh bit in the side of the dressing room. And he's trying to place snooker balls on this surface, and they're rolling all over the place. That basically what he was trying to set up for me was, and obviously they showed me this afterwards on a table, that you, if it's going to be close, you put up an intervening ball. So you've got your cue ball, you've got the object ball that it needs to pass, and then you have an intervening ball, and then you've got your either your ball marker or a ball next to the the the ball that you're trying to judge, and then you're looking at the line down through the cue ball, the the ball you put on the table and the other ball to see whether it is uh which angle it is to judge whether it's a free ball or not. I never knew. Nobody showed me this. Do you know what I mean? It it was all experience. So this has all happened before the interval, by the way. So, you know, four frames in, and and I I'm a wreck. I've gone upstairs to get my two players when we're going back down and we're in the lift, and I've said, uh I've apologized, I've said, Look, I'm I'm really sorry about the the free ball situation, or the I don't know, I can't remember what I apologised for, but I was apologising. And Ken Daugherty said, he turned around and went, it's fine, don't worry about it. It needs to happen. Um, and he was meaning the change and the fact that um we we needed to see a uh obviously a different you know, change in the referees' roles, but um that I was gonna get the experience on the job, and I just thought, oh my goodness, do you know I've I've that's somebody he didn't have to do that, he didn't have to say that. It was just so so lovely to give me a bit of support in in what was a pretty horrific period, to be honest. My first ranking event match, and I'd made such a arse of it, I really had, but it was then lovely to know that I've I was I was being supported by somebody who obviously was a very, you know, a bloody good professional player. It it was it was lovely. It was it gave me it gave me some heart to be fair.

Allison Fisher 33:57

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